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"TheBeerNut":3b5vipib wrote:

"delboy":3b5vipib wrote: which was basically people admitting to drinking commercial beers[/quote:3b5vipib]It has people naming the macrobrewed beers they enjoy. It's a direct contradiction to your thesis that this site is full of snobs who think it's all bad beer.

"delboy":3b5vipib wrote: im guessing you are using the same arguement from above that people who are big into microbrews will brew beers that emulate them, hardly a shocker.[/quote:3b5vipib]I named four beers. I wouldn't consider any of them to be a microbrew. That supposed snobs want to brew mainstream beers like Pride and Boston Lager again gives the lie that we're all about obscure beers.

"delboy":3b5vipib wrote: to then suggest you have no bias and that microbrews are better on the basis of a few mates down the pub is a bit out of whack though.[/quote:3b5vipib]I didn't. I cited specific illustrative examples, and have also said that generalisations aren't helpful. Please don't accuse me of generalising when I'm not.[/quote:3b5vipib]

"TheBeerNut":3b5vipib wrote:

"delboy":3b5vipib wrote: which was basically people admitting to drinking commercial beers[/quote:3b5vipib]It has people naming the macrobrewed beers they enjoy. It's a direct contradiction to your thesis that this site is full of snobs who think it's all bad beer.

"delboy":3b5vipib wrote: im guessing you are using the same arguement from above that people who are big into microbrews will brew beers that emulate them, hardly a shocker.[/quote:3b5vipib]I named four beers. I wouldn't consider any of them to be a microbrew. That supposed snobs want to brew mainstream beers like Pride and Boston Lager again gives the lie that we're all about obscure beers.

"delboy":3b5vipib wrote: to then suggest you have no bias and that microbrews are better on the basis of a few mates down the pub is a bit out of whack though.[/quote:3b5vipib]I didn't. I cited specific illustrative examples, and have also said that generalisations aren't helpful. Please don't accuse me of generalising when I'm not.[/quote:3b5vipib]

Come of it, the clue is in the title 'guilty pleasures' the default position is commericial bad, something to be admitted to as almost as a vice.

Exhibit B "Beoir is an independent group of consumers with a primary goal of supporting and raising awareness of Ireland's native independent microbreweries".
'There is none so blind as those that will not see'

You said that you have decided microbrewed is better, (if only research was so easy) in reality you've shown nothing more than a self selecting cohort can pick out their personal preference. I haven't accused you of generalisation (you're pulling that out like a sheriffs badge <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt="" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: --> ) i've simply pointed about the problems of drawing conclusions using such 'evidence'

Right enough i didn't understand the thrust of your argument about the brewing first time round, after the clarification i can see you are arguing that because some people on here brew beers from large regionals and independents breweries that this negates any notion that their is bias for locally microbrewed/microbrewed/esoteric/independent (in that order) (despite the local microbrewed bit being in the opening sentence of the site <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt="" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: --> ).

I take issue with your classification of rochefort etc as mainstream/macro, if it was awash with heniken and stella etc clones you might be onto something, but regardless of that point I think your arguement doesn't really hold water anyway. You are talking about the 'mode' of the brewdays thread (based on a cursory glance at the brewdays, a pretty sketchy measurement TBH) but if i was minded im sure i could dredge up a whole host of threads from the brewdays section that aren't sam adams or london pride etc and which in their totality would probably easily outnumber them.

&amp;quot;delboy&amp;quot;:3kkghqvn wrote: the default position is commericial bad, something to be admitted to as almost as a vice.[/quote:3kkghqvn]Sorry delboy: that's all in your head. You're entitled to your interpretation but that's not what it literally says nor how I read it.

&amp;quot;delboy&amp;quot;:3kkghqvn wrote: "Beoir is an independent group of consumers with a primary goal of supporting and raising awareness of Ireland's native independent microbreweries".[/quote:3kkghqvn]Every last one of them producing commercial beer, too. Go commercial beer!

&amp;quot;delboy&amp;quot;:3kkghqvn wrote: You said that you have shown microbrewed is better[/quote:3kkghqvn]That's simply, factually, untrue. I said "We certainly decided here that the specific microbrews in question were better". Specific people, specific beer, specific incidents. You are absolutely right that one cannot draw conclusions on such evidence, hence I draw no conclusions.

Whereas you're all about conclusions and have "neither the time nor the inclination" to gather evidence. If only, as the fella says, research were so easy.

&amp;quot;delboy&amp;quot;:3kkghqvn wrote: i can see you are arguing that because some people on here brew beers from large regionals and independents breweries that this negates any notion that their is bias for microbrewed[/quote:3kkghqvn]You may see that, but it's not what I'm saying. I'm presenting an illustrative example to refute your claim that members aren't interested in beer from large breweries.

And a word on the stated aims of Beoir: yes, we support microbreweries. We do not make any claims that beer from microbreweries is universally better than beer from large breweries. Beoir is not a campaign for Good Beer against Bad Beer: that would be an impossible task and one which no organisation I know has attempted. We draw the line on what we support based on cold hard hectolitres. No implications on beer quality should be drawn from this. It is not the job of Beoir's members, Beoir's admins or Beoir's publications to tell anyone which beers are good and which beers are not. Each individual's taste, including yours delboy, is not something Beoir troubles itself with.

Double post.

&amp;quot;delboy&amp;quot;:1duuf289 wrote:

&amp;quot;TheBeerNut&amp;quot;:1duuf289 wrote:

&amp;quot;delboy&amp;quot;:1duuf289 wrote: the default position is commericial bad, something to be admitted to as almost as a vice.[/quote:1duuf289]Sorry delboy: that's all in your head. You're entitled to your interpretation but that's not what it literally says nor how I read it.

&amp;quot;delboy&amp;quot;:1duuf289 wrote: "Beoir is an independent group of consumers with a primary goal of supporting and raising awareness of Ireland's native independent microbreweries".[/quote:1duuf289]Every last one of them producing commercial beer, too. Go commercial beer!

&amp;quot;delboy&amp;quot;:1duuf289 wrote: You said that you have shown microbrewed is better[/quote:1duuf289]That's simply, factually, untrue. I said "We certainly decided here that the specific microbrews in question were better". Specific people, specific beer, specific incidents. You are absolutely right that one cannot draw conclusions on such evidence, hence I draw no conclusions.

Whereas you're all about conclusions and have "neither the time nor the inclination" to gather evidence. If only, as the fella says, research were so easy.

&amp;quot;delboy&amp;quot;:1duuf289 wrote: i can see you are arguing that because some people on here brew beers from large regionals and independents breweries that this negates any notion that their is bias for microbrewed[/quote:1duuf289]You may see that, but it's not what I'm saying. I'm presenting an illustrative example to refute your claim that members aren't interested in beer from large breweries.

And a word on the stated aims of Beoir: yes, we support microbreweries. We do not make any claims that beer from microbreweries is universally better than beer from large breweries. Beoir is not a campaign for Good Beer against Bad Beer: that would be an impossible task and one which no organisation I know has attempted. We draw the line on what we support based on cold hard hectolitres. No implications on beer quality should be drawn from this. It is not the job of Beoir's members, Beoir's admins or Beoir's publications to tell anyone which beers are good and which beers are not. Each individual's taste, including yours delboy, is not something Beoir troubles itself with.[/quote:1duuf289][/quote:1duuf289]

So im entitled to my opinion, but its wrong, thats very generous of you, I could say the same back but that just amounts to a bunfight. But the evidence is there in the opening line of the site. I would have to say if there isn't a bias for microbrewed then beior is some what failing in its remit.

In relation to that thread I see you pulling me up about being literal, i assume because I dropped one word from the title of the thread, one word which in no way changes the meaning, 'Guilty pleasure' vs 'guilty pleasure beer'.
The opening gambit is below.

"What's the beer that you really like, but as a craft beer enthusiast you really wouldn't normally admit to liking? (Either because the Brewery is owned by a huge conglomerate or because it just has no "craft beer street cred").

I see that your are a man that seizes on a misplaced word, i actually realised this and if you look above you will see that i changed shown to decide as i suspected you would take issue with it, you grabbed a quote version before i was able to change it to 'decided', I stand by the statement though.
Im about highlighting people using flimsy data to justify what suits them or to use them as or cop-out 'illustrative examples' you wouldn't get far in science speaking about 'illustrative examples' <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt="" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: -->
I was ging to say if you want i'll waste a half hour of my life going through the brewdays to see which contention/assumption is correct but on second thoughts i've got shit to do like fill in job applications, you can take the brewdays one as a win if you want im not wasting the time sifting through that to produce something as meaningless as your taste testing 'decisions'/'illustrative purposes' <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt="" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: -->

This is a really interesting chat - could ye not have saved it for the pub and had it out over a few cold ones? <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt="" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D -->
From Delboys side, it's hard to refute the proposition that more negative comments have been posted about macro's than micros (search "macro swill" for examples), and the generalisation that 'macro' has negative connotations on this site has plenty of backing (search "macro" for 15 pages of examples (not that Ive checked em all <!-- s:oops: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_redface.gif" alt="" title="Embarassed" /><!-- s:oops: -->).
On TBN's side of the fence there are people on this site who are happy to talk about larger commercially available beers in a positive light, and while the tone of such 'guilty pleasure' posts [u:3mfqn1q5]could[/u:3mfqn1q5] be argued to be negative, there's no denying that people on this site like macro beers.
Ultimately, I'd prefer if people worried about taste more than 'street cred' myself, but thats my opinion. And thats what this site is about - people expressing opinion about beer.

&amp;quot;Irish Party Ale&amp;quot;:1g63oa1d wrote: This is a really interesting chat - couly ye not have saved it for the pub and had it out over a few cold ones? <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt="" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D -->[/quote:1g63oa1d]

It certainly would be better in the pub, i think somewhere on here TBN was offering to buy me heniken all night, although i may have misinterpreted him again <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt="" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: --> <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt="" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: -->

The face to face in the pub is cerainly better for these things, i find on the tinternet people tend to spin off in apposing directions, in the pub you can make your point in a much concillatory way resulting in both parties usually finding common ground to agree on.
For what its worth im not suggesting everyone on here is a macro heating beer snob (far from it) but i am saying there is a bias towards micro, and that in my experinece some of the worst beer i've had have been local and micro hardly that contraversial.

Right i really shouldnt be on here, i really do have job applications to fill in, quite pressing as im getting the chop at the end of the month unfortunately <!-- s:cry: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cry.gif" alt="" title="Crying or Very sad" /><!-- s:cry: -->