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I think that beer enthusiasts, particularly BJCP types like to pigeon hole colours and styles to a great degree, especially in America. In Europe things are alot more broad and forgiving in terms of colour and names.

I do think that Schwarzbier tends to be a german speciality, and a name that is not often used outside it (except US craft brewers trying to copy the style)

Here when brewers brew darker lagers they tend to use "black lager" or "dark lager" to describe them rather than the German terms.

I hate to think there are hard and fast "rules" when it comes to brewing - beer is so much more interesting than that!

"Beer Wrangler":2i2sjqr0 wrote: I hate to think there are hard and fast "rules" when it comes to brewing - beer is so much more interesting than that![/quote:2i2sjqr0]
Amen, Brother! <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

Yeah, the BJCP is really mostly applicable for homebrew competitions or things that need some sort of style definition to work to. But we won't start that old argument again <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt="" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D -->

&amp;quot;Barry M&amp;quot;:3214p9jl wrote:

&amp;quot;Beer Wrangler&amp;quot;:3214p9jl wrote: I hate to think there are hard and fast "rules" when it comes to brewing - beer is so much more interesting than that![/quote:3214p9jl]
Amen, Brother! <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

Yeah, the BJCP is really mostly applicable for homebrew competitions or things that need some sort of style definition to work to. But we won't start that old argument again <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt="" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D -->[/quote:3214p9jl]

Unfortunately I have to know what the BJCP guidelines are all about as I'm doing a Beer Sommelier exam this year. As it's a US company (Cicerone) they love their style definitions!

Ah, interesting. I've been looking at the Cicerone stuff (following on Twitter). I have to admit, while I use BJCP guidelines as a rough guide when home brewing, I personally don't think they should be applied when judging commercial beer, unless those commercial breweries are also trying to stick to these styles. Luckily they don't, but then it just means "styles" are a moving target, which is fun for us drinkers, but perhaps not for the style definers <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt="" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D -->

I can see, though, where they could provide a rough rule of thumb when talking about beer in a Sommelier (or Cicerone(tm) <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt="" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D -->) context.

Not to start another war over the validity of styles, but this is a question I've struggled with before:

What is the difference (if any) between schwarzbier/black lager and Munich dunkel?

It depends what you want to hold up as exemplars of the "style". For me, Köstritzer[/url:27ywscf8] is a classic German Schwarzbier. It's still not black though, but is relatively light bodied and had a mild roasted flavour. To me, a classic Dunkel is mid to dark brown, has a more toffee-caramel kind of malt profile, and sometimes a slight fruitiness. I guess I use König Ludwig Dunkel[/url:27ywscf8] as a typical example.

I could be completely wrong of course <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt="" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D -->

To be honest, I've had many a Schwarzbier that I would be more comfortable calling a Dunkel, but I don't want to be a style-Nazi. I'll drink what I'm given and take each beer on its own merit <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt="" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->