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"bigvalen":2xhm4x0k wrote: When I'm out with philistines, I'll always get them something other than the Carlsberg/Heineken they've asked for, during a round. No one has ever noticed, never mind complained![/quote:2xhm4x0k]

I'm reminded of a similar story from a mate of mine who used to work in a pub; they'd regularly receive heavily marked down kegs of Fosters from the suppliers trying to promote it, but they couldn't shift it no matter what. Their solution was to hook it up to the Carlsberg tap. The results were fairly predictable: no one ever noticed, never mind complained!

"bigvalen":3mqmxyum wrote: I'm often dismayed by the attitude Irish drinkers have; (...)

I don't think Irish drinkers consciously want to drink bad beer or with what is advertised; it's just they don't care what it is. [/quote:3mqmxyum]

Hmmm, that's pretty much the attitude of your average beer drinker all over Europe. Compulsive consumption, a bit like ciggie smokers, in a given situation, they need a pint in their hand, and they don't really care how it tastes, actually the blander the better. <!-- s:( --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_sad.gif" alt="" title="Sad" /><!-- s:( -->

There'll always be a margin you'll never convert, but an awful lot of those compulsive drinkers can have an epiphany if you take them individually and explain. Education is vital. It takes time, but spreading the word does work.

&amp;quot;bigvalen&amp;quot;:3mqmxyum wrote: I always thought the best way to do it would be to get small breweries to take advantage of the Irish love of factions & rivalries; try the local angle, and make a decent beer people identify as 'theirs', they way they did with Guinness.[/quote:3mqmxyum]

Hear hear ! Indeed, with the current trends in food about traceability, and knowing what you exactly eat and drink, A local beer, produced in a place most locals know, can win the trust of the local community and build a solid local following, ensuring the long-term viability of the business.
There's lotof examples of brewerie sliving on regional loyalty all over Europe, I don't see why Ireland would be that different ;D

But the evil forced of greed are already at work on that field too: in France, you'll see "local craft beers" all over the place. Many are indeed brewed locally, but almost as many are brewed under licence at the other end of the country (Duyck and Castelain being usual suspects), if not in Belgium ("Tonnerre de Brest", an allegedly Breton beer with algae in it, is brewed in Belgium) and passed off as local beers. If one doesn't read the labe carefully, that is. <!-- s:evil: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_evil.gif" alt="" title="Evil or Very Mad" /><!-- s:evil: -->

&amp;quot;Westbrew&amp;quot;:2y3rbmrj wrote: I would see Irelands beer consumers’ case more like the USA than anything European. [/quote:2y3rbmrj]

Yeah right, Ireland's unique and Europeans can't understand it , right ? many Swiss people believe that too. And many Frenc, many Germans, many Belgians, many Dutch, many Brits, many Danes, Finns, Swedes, Morwegians, Poles, Czech, Italians, Greeks, Spaniards, Portuguese... <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt="" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: -->

What's wrong with Europe, then ? <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt="" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D -->
In terms of consumer habits and mentality, Ireland still is very much European. Besides, I don't think there's as much of a prohibitionist lobby in Ireland as there is in the US. The European countries closest to the US situation would rather be in Scandianvia, where brewers cannot expect much apart from hassle from the authorities...

&amp;quot;Westbrew&amp;quot;:2y3rbmrj wrote: On the other side of the pond over the last 25 years things have gone from a sea of yellow fizz to some good choice depending on the area you are in. [/quote:2y3rbmrj]

The average visitor to the US still comes back complaining about there being only Bud and the like all over the place... It's awfully easy to miss a micro or brewpub that's right under your nose if you don't know where to look.

&amp;quot;Westbrew&amp;quot;:2y3rbmrj wrote: As far as I understand this has been done by well run micro-breweries with good marketing. What support they got I have no idea but very little I would suspect in the land of free enterprise. [/quote:2y3rbmrj]

Very little help, they rather had every page in the book thrown at them, they fell like flies, and still do, the human cost being rather huge. The ones that did make it have had a lot of luck, and are not necessarily the ones producing the best beer, by far.

&amp;quot;Westbrew&amp;quot;:2y3rbmrj wrote: I see new Irish micro brews as the key to improvement here. It is them that need support from EBCU, ICB, and anyone that can give it. [/quote:2y3rbmrj]

Microbreweries are just one part of the equation, albeit a large one. Consumer awareness and education is another one, and that's where consumer organisations can do their bit.

&amp;quot;Westbrew&amp;quot;:2y3rbmrj wrote: Drinking something different needs to be seen as “cool” <!-- s8) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cool.gif" alt="" title="Cool" /><!-- s8) --> EBCU, ICB, or even GOD are never going to convert a 45 year old life-long Guinness drinker! [/quote:2y3rbmrj]

I do believe you're mistaken here. It's not as monolithic and definitive as that. Indeed, some of them will never shift habits, but the majortty of life-long drinkers can be persuaded to switch to something else if they see there's more to it.
They may discover that taste does matter.
They may switch to beers from a local brewery, because they know where it's brewed, or even the people who brew it,a nd they can identify to it.
They may discover the beer from a micro, local or not, and realise it does taste remarkably like G**nn*ss did 25 years ago.

Thing is you need militant consumers to raise awareness, take them one by one, tease their curiosity, and eventually get them to try the unusual. I've been doing just that for the better part of tenb years now, and it does work, epiphanies do happen, conversions can be all the more radical that people realise they've been lied to for a lifetime, not because you tell them so, but because they discovered it by themselves.

&amp;quot;Westbrew&amp;quot;:2y3rbmrj wrote: Perhaps we should ask what can EBCU do for Irelands micros? [/quote:2y3rbmrj]

EBCU is a federation of CONSUMER organisations.

We can do what consumers do : raise awareness about micros In Ireland and abroad, demand a fair (not free, HUGE difference) competition regime, a sliding scale of duty with tax cuts for micros (when such a law comes into force, we've usually seen duty repaymentsused to invest in the production plant rater than squandered to drop the price of the pint by a few cents).

EBCU can also provide expertise and help for Irish beer consumers to do much-needed grassroots jobs, lobbying local pubs so they take beers from micros on board, organise beer tastings and beer / food peiring evenings in pubs, make their voices heard in local and national media.
Most of the work will have to be done by Irish beer enthusiasts and activists. EBCU has no vocation to act as a colonial power, it's up to youse lot to decide if you're ready to put your foot where your mouth is.

&amp;quot;Westbrew&amp;quot;:2y3rbmrj wrote: Bottle plant for Hooker brewery? Island brewery for Arran Mor? [/quote:2y3rbmrj]

With serious lobbying for the introduction of substantial tax cuts foor salle breweries, the cash to do just that could be liberated.

Cheers !

Laurent

Laurent,

What I meant was Irelands traditional / local / micro brewing industry is so far back in the mists of time, it may as well have never existed. Unlike most of Europe which has hung on to some form of traditional local brews. In that respect I think it is similar to USA, as you say anything other than Bud is hard to come by in USA and here (well bud + Guinness)
[quote:2b0avrph]What's wrong with Europe, then ? [/quote:2b0avrph] Nothing <!-- s:? --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_confused.gif" alt="" title="Confused" /><!-- s:? -->

As regards the 45year old Guinness drinker I have to disagree don’t waste your time. Do you not think a far better target would be the 25year old age group. (old dogs cant learn new tricks)
I once asked in my rural local pub “if I or Paddy over there started to make and sell beer would they drink it?” The reaction was disbelief at such a stupid question and caused huge laughter. Replies ranged from “you would put rats in it” to “You won’t make anything better than this stuff I’m drinking anyway”

&amp;quot;Laurent Mousson&amp;quot;:1bjq5wqc wrote: They may discover the beer from a micro, local or not, and realise it does taste remarkably like G**nn*ss did 25 years ago.[/quote:1bjq5wqc]Unfortunately, that's a reason why they wouldn't drink it, further to what Westbrew says above. I had this discussion with my 65-year-old Dad a couple of weeks ago. He likes his nitro pint of stout and wouldn't see regression to an older style as a good thing. My bottled stout was the sort of thing [i:1bjq5wqc]his[/i:1bjq5wqc] father drank and therefore, like, soooo uncool <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt="" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D -->.

&amp;quot;Laurent Mousson&amp;quot;:1bjq5wqc wrote: I don't think there's as much of a prohibitionist lobby in Ireland as there is in the US[/quote:1bjq5wqc]It's true: there isn't. What we have instead is a very powerful publicans' lobby who will actively fight drinkers' interests at every turn. I think that, and the knock-on implications for the licensing laws and the drinks industry, is a major factor that makes Ireland different from the rest of Europe.

&amp;quot;Westbrew&amp;quot;:33xcg4yq wrote: What I meant was Irelands traditional / local / micro brewing industry is so far back in the mists of time, it may as well have never existed. Unlike most of Europe which has hung on to some form of traditional local brews. [/quote:33xcg4yq]

Well, not quite.

Indeed, Germany, Belgium, The Czech Republic, Austria, Eastern Switzerland have retained traditional breweries.

But France, Western Switzerland, Spain, Italy, Denmark, Norway and Sweden all had seen their traditional breweries disappear more or less entirely. In those countries, micros had to start from scratch, and beer culture is being rebuilt from the foundations up.

And if you consider the cases of Italy and Denmark with their bustling micro scenes, amazingly bold brewers and incredible diversity offered to any consumer looking further than his local supermarket, you have to admit there's hope even in places that were beer deserts 10 to 15 years ago.

As to 25 yo guys being a better target group, there's no doubt of that, but you'd be surprised to see how guys in their 40s or even 60s, who've drunk the very same beer ever since they were allowed to enter a pub, can switch to sth else if they feel there's a good reason to. Such as the beer being brewed down the road by a guy they've seen grow up in the village.
I've seen that with BFM, in the Franches-Montagnes, where the stauchly independen horse-breeding or watch.making locals must be as hard-headed as any Irishman can be. The local bunch of retired gentlemen down at the pub had been drinking Warteck, brewed in Basle, for most of their lives, and wanted no other. When Lil' Jérôme Rebetez started brewing in the village, those guys didn't seem to care for a while, after a year or so, since he was still there, they gave it a try, since it is local.
They clearly had to force the first few down (switching from bland lager to stronger ales that take not prisoners), but now they wouldn't drink anything that wasn't brewed in the village.

My point is : indeed it's a difficult target, but miracles do happen now and then.