TOPIC:

Hi All,
As discussed in the thread Lenihan announces new alcohol initiative[/url:2y71u8c8] and summed up in our submission to the Government Alcohol Advisory Group, the current tactics used to combat binge drinking are, at best ineffective and at worst counter productive.

This is not only the case in Ireland, but in other countries, some of which have taken an even harder line on the issue and brought in draconian legislation, with similar results.

What I would like your help with is a positive approach to changing things. There is pressure on our politicians to do something about our binge drinking culture and they will indeed do something, whether it is effective or not, as that will get the lobby groups to stop annoying them. At the moment there are no new ideas on the table so they will go with an old one. This is not something we want to happen.

What I am trying to say is that it is not enough for us to point out that duty rises and restrictive closing times have never done anything to make the situation better, we have to put forward ideas that they can implement and be seen to implement.

I am looking for any idea, large or small, that might actually have a chance of improving things, even slightly and if it could make a minister look good at the same time, no harm. Our ideas can be presented as a single, multi pronged strategy, which I will do my best to get out there and talked about.

I most specifically do not want this to descend into a bitching session, where we give out about vested interests, brown envelopes, political short sightedness, etc. Be positive and suggest ideas. If you see a flaw in an idea, point it out, by all means, but try to make all criticism constructive.

I now throw the discussion open to the floor.

Séan

First thing to look at is what works elsewhere.

Two things spring immediately to mind. One is liberalised licensing hours. Don't turf them all out at the same time and you won't have the weekly Battle of Temple Bar. An extreme illustration is New Zealand, where, between 1917 and 1967, closing time was set at 6pm. This led to a phenomenon known as "The Six O'Clock Swill", where men would crowd into bars straight after work and skull as much as they could in an hour. Not healthy. What we have is a more liberal version of that, but the principle applies.

Secondly, going back to the point we made about creating respect for alcohol, I think beers under a certain strength, say 4.2%, should be exempt from standard licensing laws and available to children from age 16, as in several European countries. I wouldn't change the laws on children-in-pubs, but teenager and Dad, on a Saturday afternoon watching the match with a pint, would be A Good Thing.

And thirdly I'd also ban alcopops. They have done the most damage to people's respect for alcohol, in my opinion. Does anyone know if somewhere has done this already?

How would you see the liberalisation of closing time going? Issuing more late licences?

When you say that drinks under a certain ABV should be exempt from standard licensing laws, what do you mean? No license required to sell it? No closing time if this is all you sell?

I'm not sure I like the idea of a 16 year old being able to legally buy any kind of alcohol and 4.2% has plenty punch. I agree that parents should have the right to introduce alcohol to their children in a controlled environment, but I think that environment should be the home.

How about a duty break on mid strength beers? If an alcoholic beverage is under, say 3.5% ABV, you have to pay very little tax.

I am a bit unsure about alcopops. On the one hand they are certainly the drink of choice for the younger drinker, but on the other, are they all that different from a vodka and orange, a sweet cider, or a sweet fruit beer, for that matter? The market is there and the drinks companies know it is there. If you ban alcopops they will simply figure out ways to make other beverages to appeal to the same market.

A change for the better with respect to this country’s attitude to alcohol will require a paradigm shift of quite epic proportions. The potential for this positive shift lies with educating children, and as I have stated before, it will take at least a generation of two for the effects to be seen. TBN has nailed the matter as far as I am concerned with his reference to a father enjoying a responsible pint with his 16 year old son. This is how the culture will be changed. You don’t need me to point out, however, that a paradigm shift of this magnitude will be very difficult to bring about, and as a result not many politicians will use their influence to make it a reality.

I am aware of our clearly biased attitude to beer, and we should be careful when we talk about reducing duty on beer because of its relatively low strength because wine and spirit producers will correctly point out that any individual is quite capable of bladdering themselves on beer alone, and all of the social ills this brings along with it.

I was in the Porterhouse last night and introduced a colleague to TSB. Aside from the taste and general texture of the beer, which he found very agreeable, he was most impressed with the ABV. At only 3.7% it is a beer that can be consumed at quantity without ill effects. We need more of this type of beer, and it production should be incentivised by the government.

As is the thrust of our general argument, there are no quick fixes to this problem, but perhaps we are not aware of just how long it will take to fix this problem effectively and for good.

"sbillings":24wwoy4e wrote: How would you see the liberalisation of closing time going? Issuing more late licences?[/quote:24wwoy4e]Not issuing more late licenses, but allowing the holders of such licences to choose their closing time. That's what they have in the UK, isn't it?

"sbillings":24wwoy4e wrote: When you say that drinks under a certain ABV should be exempt from standard licensing laws, what do you mean? No license required to sell it? No closing time if this is all you sell?[/quote:24wwoy4e]A simple licence of unlimited quantity which is really just to ensure responsible behaviour by the shopkeeper. Normal hours would apply. Anyone running a convenience store would be able to stock low-alcohol products.

"sbillings":24wwoy4e wrote: I'm not sure I like the idea of a 16 year old being able to legally buy any kind of alcohol and 4.2% has plenty punch.[/quote:24wwoy4e]But it's not any kind of alcohol: no spirits, no wines and no currently-marketed alcopops. I took the 4.2% example from Finland, I think, and because there are actual beers in Ireland at that strength. Lowering it would be fine if the product existed. In Finland, the big brands produce 4 grades of lager. 1 and 2 are both under 4.2% and available to 16 year olds.

"sbillings":24wwoy4e wrote: I agree that parents should have the right to introduce alcohol to their children in a controlled environment, but I think that environment should be the home.[/quote:24wwoy4e]I totally agree, but how do you legislate for that? I'd like to think that at 16 a teenager is still heavily dependent on their household and that their drinking outside the home would be noticed and regulated. While I'm doubtless being very naive, the counter argument is to lower the legal drinking age for low-alcohol products even further. Plus, from a uniquely Irish perspective, some of the heaviest binge drinkers I know from my age group were raised by Pioneers. Bottom line is that prohibition-until-18 is A Bad Thing.

"sbillings":24wwoy4e wrote: How about a duty break on mid strength beers? If an alcoholic beverage is under, say 3.5% ABV, you have to pay very little tax.[/quote:24wwoy4e]To help encourage the industry to produce such products? It might work, but I'd be surprised if there's a market for it, unless, as Hendrixcat points out, we as a nation suddenly develop a taste for tasty low-alcohol session ales. Fingers crossed. I'm surprised there's a market for Guinness Mid-Strength and low-alcohol Carling for that matter.

"sbillings":24wwoy4e wrote: I am a bit unsure about alcopops. On the one hand they are certainly the drink of choice for the younger drinker, but on the other, are they all that different from a vodka and orange, a sweet cider, or a sweet fruit beer, for that matter?[/quote:24wwoy4e]Yes, because a mixed spirit drink is Proper Drink. You know you are Drinking when you have one, even if you're mixing it out of a naggin and a Kia Ora bottle in a field somewhere. Alcopops have an accessibility which encourages irresponsible drinking. Yes, if they're banned kids will go back to their Scrumpy Jack and their cheap vodka. Banning alcopops is more about encouraging respect for alcohol rather than viewing it as something you can throw down with no effort or ill-effects.

"sbillings":24wwoy4e wrote: The market is there and the drinks companies know it is there. If you ban alcopops they will simply figure out ways to make other beverages to appeal to the same market.[/quote:24wwoy4e]That's interesting. Like what? I've seen loads of low-budget fruit beers marketed at this crowd die. Anybody remember blackcurrent Clear Beer? No, of course you don't.

A radical overhaul of the age limits on alcohol consumption is needed with a staggering of the limits of what is allowed to be sold to who and where.

As an example lower the age limit for a single glass of wine normal strength or beer at less than 4% at one sitting to 12 or 14 in a licensed resturant for consumption with a meal.
Allow the sale of standard draught beer/ equivalent bottled beer to 16 in a bar if accompanied by responsible adult over say 25 or 30 with limits on volume sold in a public bar.
At seventeen allow same beer to be consumed without accompanying adult.
Allow wine and fortified wines and all beer to be sold to anyone over 18 for consumption in a public bar resturant or other licenced premises.
Allow spirits and spirit derived drinks to be sold to 17/18 year old with a meal in licensed resturant and limit sales openly of spirits and spirit derived drinks to over 21 in bars and off licences.
Raise the age limit for off-licence to perhaps 19 for beer wine and cider and 21 for fortified wines along with spirits.

These are just a few quick thoughts and need teasing out.