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"Tube":3m79yeoa wrote:

"Spud 395":3m79yeoa wrote: From what I've been reading new oak barrels can impart very harsh flavours,[/quote:3m79yeoa]
I'm not so sure. Odell's Woodcut series of beers is in virgin American Oak:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="odellbrewing.com/beers/woodcut-landing">odellbrewing.com/beers/woodcut-landing

&amp;quot;Spud 395&amp;quot;:3m79yeoa wrote: beer is normally aged in barrels that have been previously used for spirits or wines.[/quote:3m79yeoa]
I think that might be because those barrels are readily available, as once they've been used once they can't be re-used.

Prior to modern stainless steel casks oak was the material of choice.[/quote:3m79yeoa] To quote Randy Mosher "American oak will be far to pungent for beer use, except for massive and very long aged brew's"

Barrels are used more than once in both spirit and wine making. Typically bourbon will be aged in a virgin barrel, this barrel will then be reused for whiskey/tequila/rum ageing.
The same with wine, I'm not sure which wines are aged 1st I think it's whites (oak-aged chardonnay and the likes) later more robust reds and port's.
They do have a limited lifetime all right and this seems to be when they are usefull for ageing beer, they will also impart some of the flavours they've picked up along the way.

&amp;quot;Spud 395&amp;quot;:yu60g468 wrote: From what I've been reading new oak barrels can impart very harsh flavours, beer is normally aged in barrels that have been previously used for spirits or wines.
Especially with smaller barrels, as the ratio of beer in contact with wood is much higher.[/quote:yu60g468]

It's not harsh; you just get a strong oak flavor contribution. (Which I find very ideal in oak aging; I don't see the point much otherwise.)

The oak flavor fades overtime.


Adam

&amp;quot;Tube&amp;quot;:p9wbgwsr wrote: Beer was originally stored in oak casks that had never had anything else in them. Some would argue that the modern ss/alu/plastic cask isn't authentic as a result.[/quote:p9wbgwsr]

Yes but the insides of most of those barrels were covered in pitch which prevented the oak from contributing much. Beer of old was also usually infected with wild yeasts and bacteria from the oak barrel; -romanticizing about beer of old is nice, but there were certainly downsides, too.


Adam

&amp;quot;Spud 395&amp;quot;:1wevoxjh wrote:

&amp;quot;Tube&amp;quot;:1wevoxjh wrote:

&amp;quot;Spud 395&amp;quot;:1wevoxjh wrote: From what I've been reading new oak barrels can impart very harsh flavours,[/quote:1wevoxjh]
I'm not so sure. Odell's Woodcut series of beers is in virgin American Oak:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="odellbrewing.com/beers/woodcut-landing">odellbrewing.com/beers/woodcut-landing

&amp;quot;Spud 395&amp;quot;:1wevoxjh wrote: beer is normally aged in barrels that have been previously used for spirits or wines.[/quote:1wevoxjh]
I think that might be because those barrels are readily available, as once they've been used once they can't be re-used.

Prior to modern stainless steel casks oak was the material of choice.[/quote:1wevoxjh] To quote Randy Mosher "American oak will be far to pungent for beer use, except for massive and very long aged brew's"

Barrels are used more than once in both spirit and wine making. Typically bourbon will be aged in a virgin barrel, this barrel will then be reused for whiskey/tequila/rum ageing.
The same with wine, I'm not sure which wines are aged 1st I think it's whites (oak-aged chardonnay and the likes) later more robust reds and port's.
They do have a limited lifetime all right and this seems to be when they are usefull for ageing beer, they will also impart some of the flavours they've picked up along the way.[/quote:1wevoxjh]

I've had the Odell's first Woodcut ("No 1"$$ bottle number 1720; hand signed by the brewer) and Great Divide's first barrel aged Yeti Imperial Stout (13 months in new American oak(I still have one bottle; bottles 50 & 51)), Sam Adam's Barrel Room collection (from the Boston pilot brewery), and am in general a "barrel-aged beer junkie". I've got the "oak infusion spirals" in both French and American oak (medium toast) and have played with both. The American Oak flavors are POWERFUL on new oak (none more powerful than in Odell's Woodcut No. 1) and have lots of vanilla flavors and will probably first remind you of Jack Daniel's Bourbon.

The french oak has less vanilla and produces less over-all "vanilla" flavor than the american oak; the wine makers consider it's more mild and mellow flavors more ideal. Hungarian oak is the 3rd major wood-aging option and it's supposed to be very similar to French oak in strength and flavor but cheaper. -I don't have any Hungarian oak to play with.

Steaming the crap out of the wood DOES help to reduce the wood flavors if you want to reduce them; -personally I'd make an imperial stout first and take full advantage of the strong vanilla oak flavors.

Barrells need to be stored full of liquid (water with some sanitizer works) to prevent them from drying out and losing their seal and from getting infected. Infections of barrells by organisms like Brettanomyces are particularly troublesome because Brett can survive down in the wood (in an empty barrell) on the cellulose from the wood -so the infection risk is significant and it's hard to kill it when it's there. (Acid+ Sulfur treatments seem to be what most places will use.)


Wood barrels are a pain-in-the-ass if you're just looking to do cask ale. (Plastic casks are available for around 100 Euros via the UK; there's now high-quality single molded piece options, too.) -Some of the wood barrells are just for showing off the barrell and are varnished on the outside which prevents oxygen from permeating the barrel and really makes it behave like it's not a barrell at all from that perspective.



Adam

&amp;quot;Biertourist&amp;quot;:heblzhj3 wrote: ...Jack Daniel's Bourbon.
[/quote:heblzhj3]
You mean Tennessee Whiskey? </ Pandora's Box> <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt="" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D -->
[size=85:heblzhj3]
Not that I care about styles. Quite happy with the Bruichladdich 12 yr and Redbreast 12 I had tonight <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt="" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->[/size:heblzhj3]