TOPIC:

"CDow":33p5xmhm wrote: When I refer to quality being objective I assume that hygiene in brewing is subject the same / similar rules to that of food production, therefore there must be a minimum standard.[/quote:33p5xmhm]

Hygience isn't really of any use in distinguishing between "craft" and "non-craft" beers. Most craft breweries are hygienic, and those that are not often produce beers most people would count as craft beers (e.g. lambic beers - though obviously the question arises what we mean by "hygenic" - these kinds of discussions can get very complicated very quickly!).

"CDow":33p5xmhm wrote: Obviously the quality can be affected by quailty of raw ingredient or the time spent lagering which will affect the taste.[/quote:33p5xmhm]

It is true that the quality of a beer is shaped by all kinds of "objective" factors (e.g. hygiene, brewing processes etc.), but few or none of these guarantee quality in the aesthetic sense.

If you are using the word "quality" in a non-aesthetic sense (to denote the character of a beer, e.g. it's colour, aroma etc.), then I think you will be hard pressed to list a set of conditions that uniquely captures what all craft beers have in common. The world is a messy place!

"CDow":38kytc4i wrote: While taste is personal and perceptive, quality isn't.[/quote:38kytc4i]I disagree. Macro brewers define quality as consistency and marketability; craft brewers define it as tasting good.

"CDow":38kytc4i wrote: Judgment's of quality are based on various things, but chief among them is perception of the character of a beer.[/quote:38kytc4i]Marketability is a character.

Furthermore, "craft beer" cannot simply mean "beer that tastes good". There are plenty of beers out there that are handmade, by real people, in small batches which taste woeful because they don't know how to brew beer properly. The craftness can't be denied; the quality and the niceness can be.

"CDow":38kytc4i wrote: If a brewery brews bad quality beer to the criteria listed is it still craft beer? [/quote:38kytc4i]See above: yes.

"CDow":38kytc4i wrote: Is Smithwicks PA craft?[/quote:38kytc4i]No.

"CDow":38kytc4i wrote: I know it's brewed by a macro but surely the quality of the brew as opposed to the taste is top notch? [/quote:38kytc4i]As I said, quality is not a useful criterion.

"CDow":38kytc4i wrote: It is also brewed in small batches.[/quote:38kytc4i]No it isn't.

"CDow":38kytc4i wrote: I raise the question because I see similar discussions going on in the UK.[/quote:38kytc4i]Any "craft beer rules" for the UK cannot be applied here, no more than the rules for US can. There is no universal definition for craft beer and there never will be. But that does not mean that the term is useless. As English bloggers Boak & Bailey have pointed out, there's no universal definition for "rock 'n' roll", or even for "art", but we still use those terms because they're useful.

"TheBeerNut":puuha7nk wrote:

"CDow":puuha7nk wrote: While taste is personal and perceptive, quality isn't.[/quote:puuha7nk]I disagree. Macro brewers define quality as consistency and marketability; craft brewers define it as tasting good. [b:puuha7nk]Tasting good is personal and can differ from person to person, not a reliable indicator of quality[/b:puuha7nk]

"Dr Jacoby":puuha7nk wrote: Judgment's of quality are based on various things, but chief among them is perception of the character of a beer.[/quote:puuha7nk]Marketability is a character. [b:puuha7nk]CDow did not write this.[/b:puuha7nk]

Furthermore, "craft beer" cannot simply mean "beer that tastes good". There are plenty of beers out there that are handmade, by real people, in small batches which taste woeful because they don't know how to brew beer properly. The craftness can't be denied; the quality and the niceness can be.

"CDow":puuha7nk wrote: If a brewery brews bad quality beer to the criteria listed is it still craft beer? [/quote:puuha7nk]See above: yes.

"CDow":puuha7nk wrote: Is Smithwicks PA craft?[/quote:puuha7nk]No.

"CDow":puuha7nk wrote: I know it's brewed by a macro but surely the quality of the brew as opposed to the taste is top notch? [/quote:puuha7nk]As I said, quality is not a useful criterion.

"CDow":puuha7nk wrote: It is also brewed in small batches.[/quote:puuha7nk]No it isn't. [b:puuha7nk]Compared to Guinness it is, as are most other craft beers. I would hazard a guess that Brooklyn brew in larger quantities than SPA, yet seem to classed as craft. I'm sure that both brewers ar conscientious in terms of their beer[/b:puuha7nk]

"CDow":puuha7nk wrote: I raise the question because I see similar discussions going on in the UK.[/quote:puuha7nk]Any "craft beer rules" for the UK cannot be applied here, no more than the rules for US can. There is no universal definition for craft beer and there never will be. But that does not mean that the term is useless. As English bloggers Boak & Bailey have pointed out, there's no universal definition for "rock 'n' roll", or even for "art", but we still use those terms because they're useful.[/quote:puuha7nk]

[b:puuha7nk]So the term craft beer is open to interpretation and can differ from person to person in the same way as the concept of art can also differ?[/b:puuha7nk]

Sorry for the misattribution!

"CDow":yy1sgewk wrote: [b:yy1sgewk]So the term craft beer is open to interpretation and can differ from person to person in the same way as the concept of art can also differ?[/b:yy1sgewk][/quote:yy1sgewk]Bottom line: yes. In Ireland it's particularly useful as a way of describing one distinct sector of the beer brewing industry. In other countries it's less useful.

"CDow":yy1sgewk wrote: [b:yy1sgewk]I would hazard a guess that Brooklyn brew in larger quantities than SPA, yet seem to classed as craft.[/b:yy1sgewk][/quote:yy1sgewk]True*. That's a nice illustration of how there's no workable universal definition. Brooklyn, Sierra Nevada etc are craft for the US. If you airlifted them to Ireland they wouldn't be.

[size=85:yy1sgewk]*Sort of. "Brooklyn" brews in very small batches; most of what you'll see with a Brooklyn label on it is contract brewed upstate at FX Matt. I don't think anyone would claim FX Matt is a "craft brewery".[/size:yy1sgewk]

Thanks for that.

Anyone else with 2c to spend?

From Wiki ...
[quote:2iwbq7ab]In English, to describe something as a craft is to describe it as lying somewhere between an art (which relies on talent) and a science (which relies on knowledge). In this sense, the English word craft is roughly equivalent to the ancient Greek term techne.[/quote:2iwbq7ab]


To be fair , any industrial level beer brewing is solely relying on Science( knowledge) by now and has left talent behind in the production of beer ,
They may still employ a lot of talent in Marketing and other areas , but I'd say increasingly that is also becoming wholly scientific and knowledge based .