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"Tube":g0mbfq9a wrote: Would you class Smithwicks Pale Ale as a craft beer because the label says so?[/quote:g0mbfq9a]Nope, because -- ta-daa! -- there's an official body that has a definition of Irish craft beer which Smithwick's Pale Ale does not meet. If a hypothetical force-carbonated English ale said it was "real ale" on the label, I should say: "no, it isn't", regardless of what I happen to think of "real ale" as a useful definition, but accepting that there is an official body which claims the term and defines it.

The fact is that no official body claims to define beer styles. Bodies like RateBeer, the Brewer's Association, the various international award-granting bodies, even CAMRA to an extent, have guidelines on a wide sweep of commercial beer styles but none of them claim to be definitive. The BJCP is doing something different: creating its own self-contained beer universe inside the Programme which attempts to mirror the real one as close as practically possible.

I doubt there ever will be universal commercial style guidelines. Styles come from a pooling of lots of people's two-centses over time. They evolve the way all language evolves. It's possible that someone might taste, say, Titanic Quarter or Hop Head and say "I don't think that's an Irish Pale Ale; it's not what I understand by the term", but I don't think we're there yet. Certainly if I were asked to rhyme off a few Irish Pale Ales I would include Hop Head among them (I might not include Titanic Quarter 'cos I don't really like it).

"Tube":g0mbfq9a wrote: O'Hara's IPA abv does not fit with Tube's style guidelines for an Irish Pale Ale, but 5.2% is fairly atypical for an Irish beer. I wouldn't class it as an APA tho.[/quote:g0mbfq9a]That's interesting. ABV-wise it's in the English IPA territory. And its American hop profile puts it in a similar bracket as the likes of Proper Job or Adnams Innovation. I think there's a case for "modern English IPA" being a separate style, and it could fit in there.

"TheBeerNut":um57873z wrote: Nope, because -- ta-daa! -- there's an official body that.....[/quote:um57873z]
Point is beer makers can put anything they like (within reason) on a label.

"TheBeerNut":um57873z wrote: That's interesting. ABV-wise it's in the English IPA territory. And its American hop profile puts it in a similar bracket as the likes of Proper Job or Adnams Innovation. I think there's a case for "modern English IPA" being a separate style, and it could fit in there.[/quote:um57873z]
I would probably go along with that. And maybe there is convergence between Irish Pale Ale and Modern English IPA.

"Tube":1bo3a9ic wrote: Point is beer makers can put anything they like (within reason) on a label.[/quote:1bo3a9ic]Yes, of course. The brewers aren't the only factor in creating a style, but they're a big one. Often they're the prime the mover. If the drinkers' consensus is that that's the style, then that's the style.

I'm not yet prepared to accept that Old Engine Oil is a porter, despite the brewer deciding a year or two ago that that's what it is. But I'll probably come around to it in time, as more and more people talk about it being a porter.

My point about Titanic Quarter was more about primacy, and Hooker being first. Are there no marks for second place, or is it that once places third through sixth conform roughly to first that second gets kicked out of the group?

"TheBeerNut":24fr9n7w wrote: My point about Titanic Quarter was more about primacy, and Hooker being first. Are there no marks for second place, or is it that once places third through sixth conform roughly to first that second gets kicked out of the group?[/quote:24fr9n7w]
I'm not entirely sure I understand what you mean by this bit, but it follows naturally that as the style is better framed with each iteration, some might find themselves outside the frame. But that's life really.

I must try this Titanic Quarter. Where can it be bought?