TOPIC:

I'm partial to a pint of unreal ale myself

"TheBeerNut":eb523ce8 wrote:

"Biertourist":eb523ce8 wrote: Anyone have the "official" definition of "real ale"? [/quote:eb523ce8]

"CAMRA":eb523ce8 wrote: Real ale is a beer brewed from traditional ingredients (malted barley, hops water and yeast), matured by secondary fermentation in the container from which it is dispensed, and served without the use of extraneous carbon dioxide.[/quote:eb523ce8][size=75:eb523ce8]Source[/url:eb523ce8][/size:eb523ce8]

"Biertourist":eb523ce8 wrote: I'm specifically interested in whether the CAMRA definition is the same as the Beoir definition[/quote:eb523ce8]Beoir has never officially defined "real ale". Most Irish beer fans I know couldn't give a toss about breathers or the precise mechanics of dispense. The issue of an official definition for "real ale" in Ireland has never come up.

Personally, I really dislike the term because of the implication that beer which doesn't fit the criteria is somehow not actually beer.[/quote:eb523ce8]

So if for sake of argument, in this thread at least, we're talking about the CAMRA definition of "real ale", are we really sure that any of the places listed are actually serving real ale?

I think we can say "Here are a list of places that sometimes have cask-conditioned ales", but I'm not sure we have enough information to say "here is a list of places that have "real ales"" if we're using the CAMRA definition; it's a misrepresentation of what is being provided; the term itself implies a customer promise.

If I call a car dealership saying that I'm looking for A "ULEV-certified vehicle" (An "Ultra-Low Emissions Vehicle" by an offical standard in the US) and I show up and the owner of the car lot points me to his non-ULEV Fiat Punto "Hey, it has lower emissions than MOST cars"$$ that's misleading.

A precise query requires an equally answer to be accurate; the term "real ale" is very precise and as you pointed out is probably implies more than what most consumers in Ireland care about.

Geoff and the B&C took the high road, using the term "cask ale" -accurate and relevant.

Adam

"Biertourist":3nkbdban wrote: I think we can say "Here are a list of places that sometimes have cask-conditioned ales", but I'm not sure we have enough information to say "here is a list of places that have "real ales"" if we're using the CAMRA definition. [/quote:3nkbdban]Well you do that then. I'm going to continue pointing those who ask to the pubs with the handpumps and leave them to perform their own purity tests.

"TheBeerNut":3rm5vgtf wrote:

"Biertourist":3rm5vgtf wrote: I think we can say "Here are a list of places that sometimes have cask-conditioned ales", but I'm not sure we have enough information to say "here is a list of places that have "real ales"" if we're using the CAMRA definition. [/quote:3rm5vgtf]Well you do that then. I'm going to continue pointing those who ask to the pubs with the handpumps and leave them to perform their own purity tests.[/quote:3rm5vgtf]

Fair enough; consumer education about craft beer isn't in the agreed-upon Beoir constitution, anyway. I mistakenly thought that it was but after a quick glance it's a non-issue. As long as consumers drink more "Black Rock Guinness" and "O'hara's Guinness" vs. the non-craft beers we're making progress on the items in the Beoir Constitution.

It does seem misleading, though, as it seems like the CAMRA definition is of a "higher" standard (not that it results in better beer) than what's being provided and instead of making the extra effort to explain the difference and whether or not it matters, the "low road" of telling them that something that does not meet that standard meets it, is being chosen.

I understand that it opens a can of worms and likely initially implies to the customer that the cask ale but non-"real ale" is some how inferior to cask ale that IS "real ale", but I think there's a very simple way to avoid that can of worms and still be 100% truthful and honest about the issue. (Which is to redirect the discussion from "real ale" to "cask ale".)
-This also helps to not reinforce the term "real ale", which I think you very accurately assessed as convincing customers that other products are not real beer.
(I think both approaches have the same goals, and it's really a just a minor difference; I've always been a "details matter" guy, although my blood pressure would certainly be better if I'd let the small things go.)


The horse is probably dead at this point, though so I'll beat it no more.

Adam

While the horse is still twitching...

I think the definition has changed very recently. If there are CAMRA insiders around maybe you could tell us. I've long been poking at them about the "traditional ingredients" bit and what that means. The definition above I pulled from the site yesterday now lists the "traditional ingredients". It doesn't say they're exclusive, but I'm [i:zbiumgqf]guessing[/i:zbiumgqf] they're there so stuff made with rice and maize doesn't get to be "real ale".

Which means, among other things, no matter how you serve it, Black Rock stout will never be "real ale".

I'm of the opinion that CAMRA's definition has a lot in common with the second amendment to the US Constitution: its adherents prefer to ignore the first part because it makes no sense.

Imho, the beer revolution in Ireland is not an "real ale" revolution. Real ale is a UK thing.

We're having our own quiet revolution here, and real ale (in an Irish context, as in thread title) == real beer == beer not produced by the macros.

I think if you want real ale, as in really real ale, you'll find a great selection of beer engines (i.e. hand pumps) in the UK.

It is my impression (wrongly or rightly) that adjuncts like maize are to bulk out the fermentables cheaply. I wasn't aware that Guinness made by any Irish micro (sic <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt="" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: -->) was using maize or rice etc...?