TOPIC:

Any one can throw in a load of hops in a beer,but no matter what beer you brew,a good balance is still required. The brewers can experiment at festivals,and should, like the cask one,but their reputation is on the line. I have found it pointless to give the same name to a beer that is presented as keg and cask,at that point they are so different in taste and flavor.

I was at the Camra Festival in Newcastle last year. It was huge with hundreds of Casks, and there was loads of seriously hoppy beer, that worked really well on Cask. I don't really think it is dependant on the type of dispense, although the type of dispense often does change the character of the beer. I also doubt we will see much more hoppy beer at the Easterfest or many of the other Irish fests, as it will take time for things to change, but I do think they will change, as more people look to have hoppier beers. To be honest, for me anyway the Irish beer fests are nearly more about meeting up with like minded people, rather than tasting the type of beer that I want to drink. I know that the F well consider Purgatory and their version of Barrrelhead hoppy, but I don't at all. If I want hoppy beer in the meantime, I am just going to have to make it myself. I can see myself going to more English beer fests as a result of this, but think Ireland will eventually have more choice for the hophead! I know that loads of hops aren't to everyone's taste, and some consider some of them un-balanced, but I'm not asking for all beers to be hopped up, just some of them. When discussing the properties of beer, it always is subjective, but I just think there is plenty for everyone else, but not much for the hopheads, and I think there are quite a few of us around.

"DEMPSEY":fpxcy9im wrote: Any one can throw in a load of hops in a beer,but no matter what beer you brew, no matter what beer you brew,a good balance is still required.[/quote:fpxcy9im]

There are PLENTY of beer styles that are very much unbalanced; I think more beer diversity is a good thing and there's most certainly room for unbalanced beers that are either very bitter and hoppy with almost no maltiness or extremely malty with almost no perceptible bitterness or hop aroma and flavor. (I think we might have a different definition of the term "balanced" as applied to beer.)

A bitter, hoppy, and dry finishing IPA is quite unbalanced towards bitterness and hoppiness but can still be great beer.

And some English old ales and especially German Doppel Bocks and Belgian Dubbels can be EXTREMELY malty (and sweet in the case of a doppel bock for sure) with no late hop additions and little bitterness; certainly extremely unbalanced towards maltiness but still great beers in their own right.

I'd also argue that Porterhouse's Wrasslers Stout is an unbalanced "roast bomb" of a beer (when you stop and think about the total world of beer, ESPECIALLY stopping to consider the place of most Irish stouts on the "roasty" scale already).


I think a fair response from the hoppy beer advocate to the statement that "anyone can throw in a load of hops into a beer" is, "then why aren't they?." --That actually means that there's even less justification for the lack of hoppier options.


I'm also pretty sure the statement is based upon a logical fallacy. Of course anyone can make a hoppy beer, anyone can make a super roasty beer (which also hides faults), anyone can make a middle-of-the-road (statistically speaking) beer that is neither exceptionally hoppy, nor exceptionally malty, nor exceptionally roasty and just sits squarely in the middle of the intensity spectrum of most of the beer flavors.

I'd even argue that making middle-of-the-road beers (statistically speaking) is less challenging than making a beer that is unbalanced towards one particular flavor; there are a number of new challenges when you increase the alcohol or maltiness or even hoppiness (although this one does seem a bit easier than the others) to result in a good tasting final product.

I think a fallacy in the argument is that the people who are asking for more diverse FLAVORS in their beer are being given a response that boils brewing down to only recipe formulation "anyone can increase the amount of hops in a recipe"$$ of course they can! They can just as easily decrease them or increase the malt or roast malts; that's not the hard part the hard part is the process necessary to get to the end result and adjust the other factors so that that more unbalanced or more flavor intense beer still tastes good.
-Think of the problem in terms of a Beer Flavor "Spider Web" diagram (example: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="4.bp.blogspot.com/-QbRoJomIzOA/ThXqY87TK...1600/swri+simple.gif">4.bp.blogspot.com/-QbRoJomIzOA/T ... simple.gif -yea that example is for Whiskey but it's all I could find right now.) If each point on that spider web represents a beer flavor component, what we're saying is that most of the beer in Ireland at the moment would represent a small-ish web that for each flavor on that diagram has low-to-medium flavor intensities for most flavors on that diagram (2-3 marks from the center; except up to 5 for roast flavors (wrasslers) and 5 in malty (Clotworthy Dobbin)). Using this as a model for beer flavor (and this is EXACTLY what professional breweries use), "balanced" beers are beers that have roughly the same flavor intensity for the majority of the beer flavors; "unbalanced" beers are beers that have one or two flavor aspects that are way higher than normal and possibly others that are way lower than normal.

Again, using a spider web diagram with each point representing the major beer flavors as a framework for understanding beer, what many of us are asking for is more variety that includes "balanced" beers with more intense flavors (a larger total web); and more "unbalanced" beers that showcase one flavor at high intensity levels. -This is beer diversity at its finest.

-Go ahead and come up with such a beer spider web diagram (or download one of the myriad ones on the internet) and start plotting the flavors for the most common macro and micro beers in Ireland and you'll see that there are a TOOOOOONNN of available flavor combinations (market segments/niches) yet to be filled. It so happens that the beers in the higher intensity bitterness and hoppiness side of that scale represents a fairly popular and under-served market segment here.





-Again using these beer flavor spider web diagrams as a framework, think about the ardent supporters of both traditional British ales and the modern American "beer geek"$$ you've got one "side" that's supporting a smallish spider web that has legs that are relatively equal in length, and you've got the other "side" that's supporting both a huge spider web with most flavors "cranked to 11" or very unbalanced beers where one or two legs are very long and the other legs are way shorter. They think that they're both on opposite ends of the spectrum and have different opinions on what beer should be, but in the framework of the beer flavor spider diagram they're both on the same side; they're both arguing for what they think the ideal beer flavor attributes and intensity of those attributes should be and that the other is wrong. They are both saying the "shape and size or our beer flavor spider webs are what beer should be and nothing else". [b:fpxcy9im]BEER DIVERSITY is the issue and what many/most? craft beer drinkers are interested in; that is to say we want to see all shapes and sizes of beer flavor diagrams [/b:fpxcy9im](assuming that the flavors "work" and the end beer still tastes good; we know that some combinations do not work (highly fruity and highly roasty, for example don't work)).

-The diversity of beer produced on this island still has a long way to go and some of the more intense flavor "webs" and more unbalanced webs are gap areas; really hoppy beers being one that we know there's a market for else where and that people often ask for on these forums.

-Yes we have gone from 5 (complete guess) to 14 or 15 micros and that's generally the best way to get more beer diversity but we're a beer CONSUMERS organization and I'm not sure how much more diversity we're seeing. Even if Ireland goes from 15 micros to 1,500 if they all make a similar light colored pale ale, a porter/stout, and a wheat or a red we won't have any more shapes and sizes of beer flavor "spider webs" aka won't have an increase in beer diversity.

&amp;quot;DEMPSEY&amp;quot;:fpxcy9im wrote: I have found it pointless to give the same name to a beer that is presented as keg and cask,at that point they are so different in taste and flavor.[/quote:fpxcy9im]

That is a really, really good point/ piece of advice for a brewery. (There really is a different flavor and brand promise between cask and keg to me, too; great point.)



Adam

Beoir has done a great job (in my opinion, anyway) promoting LOCAL, CRAFT, and MORE (breweries & availability of local craft beer) in the past couple years and more importantly seeing results; I think we haven't done so well in the area of BEER DIVERSITY, although there have been some results.

I'd love to see a greater focus on seeing if we can impact beer diversity for 2012 and it's something we are hearing more and more request for on the site. (Obviously without dropping the LOCAL, CRAFT, and MORE support.)

I'd like to think that the increased competition from having more micros will automatically result in more diversity eventually but I think we could accelerate it with the right investment of time and effort.

My 2 cents,
Adam

I think Adam makes good points re beer diversity. I really want to see more Micros established and sucseeding, but I won't be able to fully support them if all they turn out is the same old stuff. Obviously the Micros need to try and convert average joe public if they can, but they need something different if they are to attract completely new drinkers. I am currently obtaining a lot of beer from the UK, as a lot of the new brewers there are starting to get the point that people want new and more exciting choices and are willing to pay the premium. I am talking about the Kernel, Thornbridge, Magic Rock and similar fairly recently established breweries. They all happen to do Black IPA's and other interesting beers, and that's where my interest is coming from, but most of them do nicely balanced beers as well, so it's not like you can't cater to different tastes in the local market. Not so long ago, a lot of my beer came from the US, but now I feel I have lots of options in the UK. Distribution and cost of imports is obviously an issue, but I have plenty of contacts in the UK, so I use them. I'd love to be giving more of this money to Irish breweries, but at the moment the only Irish beer that I buy in decent quantities is hophead. I'm aware that I probaly have extreme tastes compared to the average drinker, but I think that I am a segment of the market that the breweries can make money off.

&amp;quot;Taf&amp;quot;:27nr7nos wrote: I think Adam makes good points [/quote:27nr7nos]
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