TOPIC:

"TheBeerNut":1vk594xt wrote:

"sbillings":1vk594xt wrote: Tim Martin was not looking at setting up a micro oriented pub, he was looking at setting a chain of budget Irish pubs with cheap Guinness, cheap Bud and Cheap Smithwicks.[/quote:1vk594xt]That's my point. He could have stocked it with cheap GK IPA and San Miguel but realised that [i:1vk594xt]speciality beers wouldn't work in Dublin[/i:1vk594xt]. The fact that Diageo had make-or-break influence over someone as powerful as he speaks volumes about the Irish beer and pub trade.[/quote:1vk594xt]

Thats a really low view of your fellow Irishmen. And to be honest, I don't think San Miguel is much of an example of specialty beers. I know quite a few Irish folks who would gladly switch to Dutch Gold if it meant a €2 pint. These same people buy each other 750ml bottles of Cinq Cents when we have our poker night.

"justflow1983":3uvu9y71 wrote: This is the first time I've honestly even had the conversation about how to do it on a larger than social scale...[/quote:3uvu9y71]It could well be that that's where the work is best done -- virally.

"justflow1983":3uvu9y71 wrote: even trying to educate the drinking public with charts.[/quote:3uvu9y71]You've never seen my charts. They're [i:3uvu9y71]very[/i:3uvu9y71] compelling.

"justflow1983":3uvu9y71 wrote: You have to make things cool...[/quote:3uvu9y71]The problem with that is that things also become uncool. Often quite quickly. I prefer longer term strategies.

"justflow1983":3uvu9y71 wrote: I don't think San Miguel is much of an example of specialty beers.[/quote:3uvu9y71]Nevertheless, it's a brand that wouldn't have been available anywhere else. That's all I mean by specialty.

"justflow1983":3uvu9y71 wrote: I know quite a few Irish folks who would gladly switch to Dutch Gold if it meant a €2 pint.[/quote:3uvu9y71]Mr Martin's expensive market analysts evidently didn't find them. Maybe there's more of them now.

"TheBeerNut":onfpecd8 wrote:

"justflow1983":onfpecd8 wrote: This is the first time I've honestly even had the conversation about how to do it on a larger than social scale...[/quote:onfpecd8]It could well be that that's where the work is best done -- virally.

"justflow1983":onfpecd8 wrote: even trying to educate the drinking public with charts.[/quote:onfpecd8]You've never seen my charts. They're [i:onfpecd8]very[/i:onfpecd8] compelling.

"justflow1983":onfpecd8 wrote: You have to make things cool...[/quote:onfpecd8]The problem with that is that things also become uncool. Often quite quickly. I prefer longer term strategies.[/quote:onfpecd8]

Wasn't a knock on your charts, just that mode of promotion. I spent some time working with the Slow Food institute when I lived in Italy, its a very compelling topic. It ties in very well with the push for local/organic food across the board, which in Ireland is often tied up with self-image.

I am looking at things with a long view. I think once people are interested in better food/beer/anything else they don't return wholesale to what they were doing before. Wine became "cool" in the 1980s in the US. Before that, few people drank wine. Now, its no longer "cool" yet some level of wine appreciation is an ingrained part of the social fabric. Same thing happened with beer there in the 1990s. I'm suggesting trying to use fashion to one's advantage to increase exposure. Its back to that self-image thing that I mentioned above, you want people to WANT to appreciate beer, not just tell them they should.

"TheBeerNut":f4a8r5v3 wrote:

"sbillings":f4a8r5v3 wrote: Tim Martin was not looking at setting up a micro oriented pub, he was looking at setting a chain of budget Irish pubs with cheap Guinness, cheap Bud and Cheap Smithwicks.[/quote:f4a8r5v3]That's my point. He could have stocked it with cheap GK IPA and San Miguel but realised that [i:f4a8r5v3]speciality beers wouldn't work in Dublin[/i:f4a8r5v3]. The fact that Diageo had make-or-break influence over someone as powerful as he speaks volumes about the Irish beer and pub trade.[/quote:f4a8r5v3]

I disagree. He fell for the myth that you can't have an Irish pub without Guinness (and it is a myth, ask the Porterhouse) and saw no point in a Dublin Weatherspoons without the cheapest pint of Guinness in town by a long shot. If he got a deal for cheap Murphy's or O'Hara's instead and filled the taps with whatever lager he could get in volume, for as little as possible, people would have come through the door. They like their brands, but give them a different brand for less and a lot of people will drink that instead. Of course you end up with a pretty "interesting" customer base, but that's about right for Weatherspoons.

"TheBeerNut":f4a8r5v3 wrote:

"sbillings":f4a8r5v3 wrote: but setting up any kind of pub (or business for that matter) in the current climate is going to be an uphill struggle.[/quote:f4a8r5v3]The fewer the risks, the more gentle the incline.[/quote:f4a8r5v3]

Are you sure setting up a pub with nothing to differentiate it from the places people already call their local is the more gentle incline? In and expanding market maybe, but this is a contracting one. You need to stand out to attract custom.

"sbillings":3b6zsc6p wrote: I disagree. He fell for the myth that you can't have an Irish pub without Guinness (and it is a myth, ask the Porterhouse) and saw no point in a Dublin Weatherspoons without the cheapest pint of Guinness in town by a long shot.[/quote:3b6zsc6p]

Also, during the Celtic Tiger, saving money was out of style. I don't know when he tried to do this, but giving people value for their money during the height of the boom would have been a terrible idea. People were into conspicuous consumption, which is best served by overpriced, well known goods such as macro-branded beers. You may as well have advertised cups full of bubonic plague if you advertised cheap, off-brand drinks back then.

"justflow1983":34es3ki4 wrote: I think once people are interested in better food/beer/anything else they don't return wholesale to what they were doing before.[/quote:34es3ki4]Beer festivals in Ireland are food for thought in that area. People flock to them, drink all the strange and interesting beers (y'know, the ones made by local companies), but I don't think they make the next step. They seem to see craft beer as a special thing for that special event, and once that's over, it's back to the usual down at the usual. How do we change that?

"justflow1983":34es3ki4 wrote: Now, its no longer "cool" yet some level of wine appreciation is an ingrained part of the social fabric. Same thing happened with beer there in the 1990s. I'm suggesting trying to use fashion to one's advantage to increase exposure.[/quote:34es3ki4]Gotcha. This fashion-turned-mainstream thing depends heavily on the media. Beer columns are common in the US media, whereas there's almost no regular beer media here: Moncrieff's bit is about all there is. It's another thing I'd love to know how to change.

"sbillings":34es3ki4 wrote: He fell for the myth that you can't have an Irish pub without Guinness[/quote:34es3ki4]I doubt he fell for it without good reason, and doing his homework. There must have been a point where the team said "Diageo won't play ball; can we do this without them?" And that decision [i:34es3ki4]has[/i:34es3ki4] to have been backed up by numbers.

"sbillings":34es3ki4 wrote: You need to stand out to attract custom.[/quote:34es3ki4]Point taken. But really this is the bank manager's call. There's a fair chance he won't go for either. And I doubt he'd look favourably on one's plans to upgrade the selection in an already-thriving business.