TOPIC:

"Tube":ytsgr73n wrote: (...) I'd prefer any legislation to be introduced on a trial basis, starting with the complete liberalisation of opening hours.[/quote:ytsgr73n]

I'm sure it's an unpopular view, but I actually think opening hours as they are are too permissive. I was in the UK when they got rid of 11 o'clock closing and I thought that was a regressive move.

11 o'clock closing meant people were back in bed by midnight and able to get a normal day's work done the next day. Yes, it is paternalistic, but at the end of a night's drinking normal people aren't always able to judge what's best for them.

You might think one hour here or there is not going to make much of a difference, but I'd say you'd be wrong. Midnight is a genuine watershed. When it comes to sleep, an hour before midnight is worth two after!

I don't disagree about sleep! But having everywhere closing at the same time means ejecting the drinking populace onto the streets at the same time creating drunken crowds potentially prone to public disorder, as well as putting a huge strain on services (chippers, taxis!).

Taxi deregulation was solely because it was taking people 3 hours to get home on a Friday night. There's more than one way to skin a cat but I don't think that was the right one. Now Dublin has more taxis than New York and it's very hard to make a living out of it.

I think anything can be introduced on a trail basis. Pubs used to open till 12.30am on Thursdays but the Vintners didn't like it so it was unwound again, although that's a case of the tail wagging the dog.

Why not let the market dictate? Let a publican operate within a time frame of say 18 hours and let them choose what hours they open. Maybe restrictions in residential areas. Many people work shift or evenings, why should they be prevented from getting a drink bcause someone in the suburbs has work in the morning?

"CDow":1nfj0xn0 wrote: Why not let the market dictate? [/quote:1nfj0xn0]

Let me just say to start with that I know there's no turning back the clock, and I am not seriously saying Beoir should have an 11 o'clock closing policy or anything like that. That is MY particular preference. In my own case, I have a sort of de facto early closing when I go out in Dublin because I like to catch the last Dart home rather than paying for a taxi or waiting for a night bus.

The problem with the 'letting the market decide' is that the market often caters to the less appealing aspects of our character. The market would choose (the products of) slavery, given the chance. There are only a few sorts of thing where we should let the market decide. Also the market doesn't usually ensure that people with special needs are catered for. If it weren't for normal people staying out way past their bed times, shift workers would get nothing because there aren't enough shift workers for publicans to find it worth it to stay open until breakfast time. (Another example is privatisation of the post service. Unless there is a legal requirement for post operators to provide a universal service (to every household and address in the country), private operators will just cherry pick the best routes with the most traffic and people want to get a letter between out of the way rural spots will have to start keeping pigeons).

I was advocating good old fashioned paternalism of the, to put it facetiously, old fat white guy knows best variety.

Maybe shift-workers etc were screwed by 11 o'clock closing. That doesn't matter and their preferences are outweighed by the good it did everybody else. Unfair to them? Of course. Shit happens. Life is not fair. They can by their liquor from an off-licence and drink it at home when it suits them or they can get another job.

My life, my choice.

Believe it or not a lot of people do have the ability to leave the pub when it is still selling alcohol. I swear, I have seen it with my own eyes and even tried it a few times myself. I have also been a scoff-law and attended a lock-in or two. Nobody died.

Some people have difficulty leaving the pub if they aren't actually forced to leave, so the rest of us should be denied the right to make our own choices like the grown-ups we are? Then it's just "Shit happens. Life is not fair." for those of us it doesn't suit?

How about Shit happens. Life is not fair. If you haven't got the self control to go home when you should then maybe you shouldn't go out in the first place.

Using the law to force pubs to close just because some people, of their own volition, end up staying out too late sometimes is ridiculous! You are using the Garda and the courts, arrests, court appearances, fines, etc. to enforce a once size fits all policy.

Businesses are harassed and people hauled in front of a judge and fined for making free choices about what to do with their own time and money. And who does it actually help? Have you not seen how people behave a closing time if they feel they are not finished? The very people who lack self control, the ones you are concerned about, tend to speed up their drinking towards the end of the night. They may be heading out the door earlier but they are in a worse state than I would be with an extra hours drinking and the results can be seen on the street.

I find it interesting that there doesn't seem to be such a huge issue with people staying out far too late for their own good in countries that never had a tradition of state enforced early closing. People head home at various stages during the night and only a few businesses stay open until the wee small hours, to cater for the smaller numbers out at that time. Seems to me that the policy has a counterproductive impact or drinking culture.

"sbillings":29u64jcd wrote: My life, my choice.

Believe it or not a lot of people do have the ability to leave the pub when it is still selling alcohol. I swear, I have seen it with my own eyes and even tried it a few times myself. I have also been a scoff-law and attended a lock-in or two. Nobody died.

Some people have difficulty leaving the pub if they aren't actually forced to leave, so the rest of us should be denied the right to make our own choices like the grown-ups we are? Then it's just "Shit happens. Life is not fair." for those of us it doesn't suit?

How about Shit happens. Life is not fair. If you haven't got the self control to go home when you should then maybe you shouldn't go out in the first place.

Using the law to force pubs to close just because some people, of their own volition, end up staying out too late sometimes is ridiculous! You are using the Garda and the courts, arrests, court appearances, fines, etc. to enforce a once size fits all policy.

Businesses are harassed and people hauled in front of a judge and fined for making free choices about what to do with their own time and money. And who does it actually help? Have you not seen how people behave a closing time if they feel they are not finished? The very people who lack self control, the ones you are concerned about, tend to speed up their drinking towards the end of the night. They may be heading out the door earlier but they are in a worse state than I would be with an extra hours drinking and the results can be seen on the street.

I find it interesting that there doesn't seem to be such a huge issue with people staying out far too late for their own good in countries that never had a tradition of state enforced early closing. People head home at various stages during the night and only a few businesses stay open until the wee small hours, to cater for the smaller numbers out at that time. Seems to me that the policy has a counterproductive impact or drinking culture.[/quote:29u64jcd]

[img:29u64jcd]http://www.philaflava.com/forum/images/smilies/word2.gif[/img:29u64jcd]

Preach.