TOPIC:

Lars, I'm happy to provide evidence used in successful court cases at national level if people are interested in reading them. Also, you are quite correct in that contemporary challenges to water fluoridation HAVE proven detrimental links between water fluoridation and health.
But, I would prefer if people set up a different thread for the MMR issue, it has nothing to do with what I'm talking about and is deliberately disingenuous.

Here's a link showing why Holland banned water fluoridation due to the latest scientific evidence...
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="www.enviro.ie/How%20Evidence%20based%20M...nds_Waugh%202013.pdf">www.enviro.ie/How%20Evidence%20b ... 202013.pdf

Here's a list of statements from the then environmental departments of European states as to why they stopped fluoridation. I think we can all agree that this is legitimate and not 'quackery'?
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="www.fluoridedebate.com/question39.html">www.fluoridedebate.com/question39.html

A recent peer reviewed study from Harvard...
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/features/fluor...alth-grandjean-choi/">www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/featur ... jean-choi/

Here's the most recent Hot Press article from last week...
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="www.hotpress.com/news/Harvard-Professor-...luoride/9696932.html">www.hotpress.com/news/Harvard-Pr ... 96932.html

This is a particularly well known case as it was the prevailing reason for Japan banning water fluoridation. This is the article from the Japanese Journal of Epidemiology...
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jea1991/6/4/6_4_184/_pdf">www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/je ... 4_184/_pdf

Please remember that this is not about fluoride, its about fluoride in water. I would much prefer fluoride in salt or tablets as is the case in Spain for example.

Anyway, I really didn't want to stray from the subject of beer ( <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt="" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> ) but if people are happy enough to chat about this that's great.

Surely if there are significant dangers in fluorodisation of water, then it should be easy to show increased incidences in Ireland of diseases caused or attributed to fluoridisation that are not present in states that have abandoned fluoridisation or never had it?

I wouldnt't be quoting "evidence" from a site called fluoride debate or hotpress for that matter to support my argument.

This Ben Goldacre article states that the evidence is weak on both sides, adding or removing.
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="www.badscience.net/2008/02/foreign-subst...cious-bodily-fluids/">www.badscience.net/2008/02/forei ... ly-fluids/

Off topic but Ben Goldacre is excellent on the nonsense that is the supposed link between MMR and Autism and that the multiple single jabs were designed to part gullible parents from their money.

&amp;quot;dereko1969&amp;quot;:3uj8b3nz wrote: Off topic but Ben Goldacre is excellent on the nonsense that is the supposed link between MMR and Autism and that the multiple single jabs were designed to part gullible parents from their money.[/quote:3uj8b3nz]

I don't get that as the 3 lots of injections that both my kids got where completely free.

Well Andrew [b:35h9c35h]someone [/b:35h9c35h]paid for them somewhere, both of us in our taxes, the State through their allowing this to happen based on no proper scientific research etc.

&amp;quot;dereko1969&amp;quot;:1jeob3cb wrote: Well Andrew [b:1jeob3cb]someone [/b:1jeob3cb]paid for them somewhere, both of us in our taxes, the State through their allowing this to happen based on no proper scientific research etc.[/quote:1jeob3cb]

As is/was the MMR variant. Plus your previous point was "to part gullible [b:1jeob3cb]parents[/b:1jeob3cb] from their money." and that was what I was addressing.

An important element of freedom is the right to make the wrong decision. If you are not allowed to make a decision about your own life that the state disagrees with, then you are not free.

Putting medication, of any sort, into the water supply means that people cannot choose not to be medicated unless they go to a great deal of trouble/expense.

When it comes to fluoride the benefits of adding it to the water are an improvement in the dental health of the population. Laying the issue of forced medication aside for a moment, fluoridation of water began many decades ago, when Irish people had little or no awareness of dental hygiene. 21st century Ireland is a different place. People know that they should brush their teeth and go to the dentist. The benefit of fluoride in the water is now marginal, at best. Is anyone claiming that Irish people have better teeth than European countries which do not put fluoride in the water?

The down side if fluoridation is that some people have a bad reaction to it. Others think that it is a bad idea it ingest it. Both of these groups should have the right to fluoride free water. They pay their taxes like the rest of us and should not have this basic service made unavailable to them, particularly as it can't be said to really benefit anyone.